Ep.18: Tre'vell Anderson | Award-winning Journalist | Come Celebrate with Me

This week, host Mungi Ngomane is joined by the one and only Tre'vell Anderson. Tre'vell is an award-winning journalist whose work is dedicated to centering those in the margins. Tre'vell has worked for the LA Times, Out Magazine and is currently Editor-At-Large for Toronto's Xtra. In this episode, Tre'vell and Mungi discuss how they got into entertainment journalism, the possibility models they have looked to for inspiration into how their life could be, and their experience coming up as a non-binary, trans person at an all-male college.

The two also spoke of Tre'vell's podcast, FANTI, where they and co-host Jarrett Hill have nuanced discussions about the things we're fans of, but also have some "anti" feelings towards. Tre'vell speaks about their purpose that revolves around making space for those who are in the margins so they can see themselves reflected back. They also remind us of the importance of showing up as our full selves, especially if we wish to achieve liberation, and highlight how both transphobia and homophobia impact heterosexual-identified and cis-identified people because they reinforce the ways we are told to show up in the world. To learn more about Tre'vell and their work, visit www.trevellanderson.com

Note: The poem Tre'vell read in the episode is "won't you celebrate with me" by Lucille Clifton.

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Full Episode Transcript

Tre'vell: This podcast is produced by The Brand is Female.

Mungi: Hi, I'm Mungi welcome to the Everyday Ubuntu podcast.

Tre'vell: Being a bad bitch is about going into these spaces, going into these experiences, and realizing that you deserve to be there this week.

Mungi: This week, my guest is the award-winning journalist, social curator, and world changer. Tre'Vell Anderson. Tre'Vell always comes to slay.

And in this episode, they did not disappoint. We discussed their dedication to making space for, and centering those who do not always see themselves in the mainstream, as well as their advice for people in the margins. The important truth that Tre'Vell spoke of that I want to highlight is our problematic conception of identity that restricts us from achieving liberation.

Here's our conversation.

Tre'Vell Anderson. Welcome to the Everyday Ubuntu podcast. I'm so excited to be speaking with you today.

Tre'vell: Thank you for having me. I'm excited as well.

Mungi: And also before I start, I want to congratulate you on your permanent co-hosting gig on one a day, because I am a one a day listener, even though I'm in London at the moment, I still listen to it.

And so I know you're on Thursday mornings every Thursday morning. Okay. I'm ready for it. I love it. So

Tre'vell: congrats on. Thank you.

Mungi: So the first question I always ask my guests is about our resumes and how they're not a full explanation of who we are as a person. And I'm wondering what is missing from your resume that you think people should know about?

Tre'vell: Oh, wow. What is missing from my resume? For your listeners who don't know me, this might sound very cocky and egotistical and arrogant and all of that, but it's fine. They'll get over it. My resume does not detail how much of a bad bitch I am. Okay. I feel like the resume it's all about the work, but it doesn't really tell you about the impact of said work.

It doesn't tell you how a person shows up in a room, how they make space for other people. And I feel like those are things that are deeply important to me is to show up as my full self, no matter what that means. And no matter who else is in, in the particular space. And I feel like if you were to look at my resume, you would see somebody who works hard.

Yeah. But what else is there beyond that? I happen to think I'm a bad bitch. I think that makes space not only for myself but for other people. And I think that is a great quality to have.

Mungi: I can. I agree. And also, I haven't thought about it that way. The resume doesn't show the experiences we have to go through for those things to be on our resume.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like the difficult things. So what you're saying if you're in a space where you're the only person that looks like you I'm in a space, like what that means to us to be able to go through that whatever internship job fellowship, so that we can put it on our resume.

Like everyone else who just happened to be like in a room with people that

Tre'vell: look like. Exactly right. Those are the skills that we learn as like historically excluded people. When we find ourselves in these spaces that like you aren't necessarily able to translate onto a resume, that fight that grit, that determination, that ability to navigate any situation and come out on top.

We don't talk enough about it. Types of skills, and how they, for many of us, are like survival skills, right? They are tools that we have used to move through spaces and to create the lives that we have. But they're deeply important, if not more important than the actual jobs that we've

had.

Mungi: Yeah. 100%. So I know it's only 9:00 AM, but I'd love to know what your purpose work. You

Tre'vell: know my purpose work at 9:00 AM in the morning. I think that my purpose work is about it is about making space. It is about using whatever platforms that I have to allow people who look like me to see themselves reflected back to them in the fullness of their actual lived experience.

I think When I was coming up as a non-binary trans person. And by the way, when I say, when I was coming up, I'm talking about five years ago. Okay. When I was coming into my bad, bitchery is what I like to call it. I did not have many like outlets that I could go to, to see various possibility models of how life could look and exist for me.

And so with my work. It is as though journalism is at the core of it. Every single thing that I write is about allowing folks to see themselves accurately and fully reflected back to them. It's about making sure that people know the vastness of possibilities that lie ahead. And it's about proving to myself, but also to others that, That I deserve as well.

And for me, that manifests in terms of my, articles writing about, black and brown, queer, and trans folks, it manifests in my advocacy work for journalists of diverse backgrounds manifest, in every single aspect of my life, I think that's my

Mungi: purpose. We love that purpose. And, I've, I read your articles and they're great.

And I think someone said that you have the power of the pen, so there

Tre'vell: That's what they tell me.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Listen. All right. We are running as fast as we can, like the Jamaican track.

Mungi: Okay. So in that question you mentioned, being a person of trans experience and non-binary, and I wonder because I know that you went to Morehouse, which is an all-male university, and I wonder what your experience there was like, and I'm asking because, so I went to an all-girls school, my entire life.

But my mother would never send my younger brother to an all-boys school, just because of the like toxic masculinity that you see happening at that sort of all male schools and. And I'm wondering what your experience was like at Morehouse.

Tre'vell: I have a very complex and complicated relationship with Morehouse.

While I love Morehouse for what it gave me for the community and the friends that it gave me for the foolishness that it put me through, that allowed me to access this person that is currently in front of you, super grateful for it, but the journey being a budding queer person at the time, slowly coming into my nonbinaryness at the time, it wasn't easy.

It's not easy. I think most of the queer, particularly if you are feminine in your presentation, the trans folks who go to any single-sex, single-gender institution, that is the history of which is like rooted in. These traditional conceptions of masculinity.

And I would also say the traditional conceptions of femininity and womanhood. And the ways in which, religion is baked into the history of Morehouse college, because it started off right, as a seminary in teaching a lot of, preachers and teachers type folks. And so it wasn't easy, but there was a community.

Of queer and trans people that I found at Morehouse while I was there. And I think we were able to support each other in the ways that meant the most to us when I was at Morehouse, but that's where I started a lot of my journalism work. That's when I started a lot of my advocacy work. Mainly because I.

I wanted to create a space for myself where I could feel like I could be my full self and not be encumbered by, the homophobia or the transphobia not be encumbered by, the toxic masculinity you've mentioned. It was, I look back on it now and I can say, And I can access those positive moments, but it wasn't always positive, in, in the experience.

And there, there were, I had issues with professors. I had with other students, I was an RA. So then I also had issues with the young, the new students that were coming in because they've never, met a gay person at that time in their life. And now this queer person is their boss, their leader for all intents and purposes, as you could imagine.

And that creates some issues with people.

Mungi: I'm sure there's anti-black racism. That's happening sometimes too. Like I used to live in Atlanta and I love Atlanta, but like everyone is not black. Sometimes things happen. And

Tre'vell: the, and the people who are black have a very fa very finite, sometimes have finite idea of what blackness is, what it looks like, how it should show you don't sound

Mungi: black.

You don't talk like you're black, all of

Tre'vell: those people, who feel like, you can't be black and queer or like you have to choose one over the other. You have to be. First, meet all have these requirements, that are placed on us as a means of validating or invalidating our blackness.

All of that is hyper-focused when you're in an HBCU environment where everyone is navigating their relationship. To their blackness, to their sexuality, to their gender, even though they may not know that's what they're doing. And so you're in an experience and you're in a place where literally everyone is growing and developing and changing.

But the ways in which. Your experience might challenge someone else's isn't always welcomed. It's not always a welcomed experience by

Mungi: 100%. Okay. So you mentioned that you started your journalism while you were at Morehouse. How did you get into journalism and specifically entertainment, journalism?

Like what?

Tre'vell: Yeah. So I should say that I was in the school newspaper in high school for a year, but it wasn't really legit. I was just doing it. Cause the professor told me that I should and then when I got to a Morehouse, I continued writing for the school newspaper eventually became managing editor of the school newspaper, the maroon tiger.

But. I initially went to school thinking that I was going to be a lawyer. Okay. Elle woods in legally blonde was my, my possibility model. I wanted to tiptoe into a courtroom in all pink and, shut it down. But. I took a couple of classes that were required for the pre-law designation.

And I was like, oh, this is not, it she's not that girl that she thought she was,

I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. It was too much. So I changed my major. 12 times eventually settled on sociology, but by the time senior year came, the most consistent thing in my collegiate career was working on the paper. And so I said to myself let's try this out, try this on for size, decided to go to grad school.

I went to Stanford for my master's in journalism. And then from there, I knew that I wanted to tell stories about black folks. Tell stories about queer people. I got my first job out of grad school at the Los Angeles Times in a fellowship, like a diversity fellowship programs situation. And I thought I was going to go there and that I was going to do these great local stories about Los Angeles is black communities and queer.

And I was told by somebody in that fellowship, somebody who was overseeing us in that fellowship, an editor who still works at the LA times, by the way, that, there weren't enough black people in Los Angeles for there to be more than one person reporting on south LA, which is the code language for the blacks.

And there weren't enough queer people and trans people in LA for there to be more than one person covering West Hollywood, which was code for the LGBTQ. Which LA

Mungi: are we talking about? LA, California, or is this LA Tokyo?

Tre'vell: It did not make sense to me, but again, I'm at the start of my career. We're like, I wasn't really walking in my full brilliance at the time. So I took his feedback and I was like, okay, what other sections of this newspaper might be interested in my black queer perspective? The entertainment section of the Los Angeles Times.

They were super into it because they did not have anyone, covering Tyler Perry movies with any sort of, rigor. They did not have anyone whose sensibilities, we're attuned to what black folks and queer folks are interested in. So I just slowly started doing work in the entertainment section during that fellowship.

And then, at the end of the fellowship, I got hired full-time and just continued doing that work. I tell people often that Oscar, so white gave me job security because I feel like the LA Times. When that whole situation went down, the LA times was able to say, oh, we have this person who's been doing these diversity stories already.

We need to keep them around because diversity is the name of the game in terms of coverage. And so I say, that's how I got my full-time job out of that fellowship. And then since then, it's been a journey in terms of for me bringing my sociological imagination, my perspective into the reporting that I'm doing so that when you're reading my feature stories when you're reading my profiles, hopefully, you feel like you're getting a little something different than all of the other stories that you see out there with this particular person.

That's one of my goals,

Mungi: What's interesting what you said about job security is. It's you know, like all these black authors who are writing about race and social justice, who then, a black person gets killed and all of a sudden all this money, rush it to them. Cause everyone's mind the book, which is not great because, we don't want money because someone got killed but

also okay, great. That you are going to be reading. We hope at least. And I feel I feel like a lot of people probably experience what you just said about that. Yes, that is how people get big checks for a book about racism because otherwise, you aren't going to read about

Tre'vell: it. That's what we see happening right now in the journalism industry.

Every single publication, they have raced to be per reporters now, right? Because of the incessant killings of black people, because of the summer of quote-unquote racial reckoning last year, all of this news. Now are investing in folks who report on race, who report on culture, who report on gender.

And we're seeing simultaneously black people, a lot of black women in particular being finally promoted to those top ranks of the mass head of those publications. And so it is a, it's a complex situation because on the one hand, All of these people are super deserving and super talented, and they deserve all of these opportunities that are coming to them.

But we also can't ignore that. That the reason why they're finally being able to break these glass ceilings, they're finally getting these opportunities is because the white people are guilty and they're now trying to course-correct for their foolishness. And so it's all super complex and complicated.

Mungi: And you're always on the back foot when it's like a reactionary, instead of let's like make these actions ahead of time and bring these people in what you said about, this person who was overseeing you at the LA times and how they're still there. This connects to my next question because these conversations are happening all around Hollywood, about centering more than just the sort of like white, CIS gender heteronormative standard.

As I saying close as people believe is the standard. And I'm wondering, do you think, like there was like real desire to change this from the people at the top? Or are they just paying lip service to keep the rest of us happy who want this diversity or is it a mix?

Tre'vell: I think it's a mix of both.

I do think that there are, the well-meaning white allies who are trying to be, accomplices in this work of diversifying Hollywood. But I think it's also important for us to recognize that Hollywood is a game of money. Okay. And whatever sells is, what these executives will do, period.

But the thing is black people have always spent money. We're not just spending money. Now the situation at hand is that historically there are all of these myths in Hollywood about black folk is content and about black. In terms of what we're interested in. So it's created this myth. We call it the black films, don't travel myth, which is the idea that your black-led movie or TV show won't do well in an international market where so much money can be potentially made.

Therefore, you're not going to even Greenlight it for your us audience. Cause you can't, you feel like you can't make money on it internationally. But time and time again, there have been examples of black content that have done amazingly overseas, black actors and actresses who have huge fan bases overseas.

And so I say that and mention that to say, hopefully. The continual debunking of that myth demonstrates to the folks in the C-suites that actually diversity sells diversity pays. There've been so many studies, particularly over the last three to five years that have put a dollar amount on. The importance of diversity and show the ways in which a franchise like, the fast and the furious franchise.

One of the reasons why it is so huge is because it's so diverse, and different types of people can see themselves represented in the different types of characters. One of the reasons Black Panther was as huge as it was, but because we had never seen anything like that on-screen before the hope is that.

The people in the C-suites are seeing all of that and that they are beginning to, even if it is purely just a financial motivation, they are beginning to give people who look like us, the opportunity to tell our stories in the way that we want to tell them whether or not they really care about it. I don't know if I care that they can.

I'm glad that there are opportunities being had. And as there are opportunities for more content to show up, there are also going to be more opportunities for those black and brown, queer and trans folks who want to be in the C-suite to get those opportunities to do so as well. And I think that's how we end up overall changing.

shifting this industry is by making sure that the people who are more aligned with the types of content, we want to see that they are getting into the C-suite positions as well,

Mungi: 100%. And since we're on a podcast, I think we need to talk about your podcast Fanti. Yeah. Could you share the premise and some examples of what fan time is?

Like what it means?

Tre'vell: Yes. So Fanti is a podcast that I host with my good friend, Jared hill. Who's a politics Journalist and screenwriter and all of the fabulous things. We basically created this word fan, Tai. When we were coming up with this show, it's a poor mantle of fan and Anton, and it's all about having complex and complicated conversations about the people, places, and things that you are big fans of, but also have.

Some anti feelings toward. And so we've done conversations on Tyler Perry, for example, I'm somebody who grew up on Tyler Perry plays in particular in Tyler Perry movies. It's one of the ways that I was able to bond with my grandmother, who was his biggest fan, we all know the Tyler Perry should not be writing his own script.

Right?

Mungi: Like what's happening in the writer's room. There, is there a writer's room? Is there one that's happening

Tre'vell: in there? Exactly. And there isn't one, right? Maybe he should not be making movies in seven days. Like it's great that you can do. But why are you doing it? And so we have a conversation like that on our show, or we, one of my favorite episodes that we've done was about our relationship to gospel music and our relationships to the church as black queer people.

Delving into the particulars and the intricacies of that we've had conversations about colorism on their show about gender. On the show. We, what we try to do is, take these conversations that you might be having around the kitchen table or in your group messages and put them in a place where there is no judgment or.

Like judgment for how you might feel or come to let's not lie. Okay. There's sometimes a little judgment, but working through our particular feeling, not as a means to answer or come to some sort of final feeling or resolution about a situation, but as a means of recognizing that.

Sometimes you can't throw away the Cosby show or a different world because bill Cosby is a trash human being. Sometimes you've got to, you got to figure out a way to still, love the art and then just divorce it from the artists. Those types of conversations, add

Mungi: nuance because we're all, intelligent beings that can add some nuance to our life.

Tre'vell: Exactly. That nuance is important. Okay. I

Mungi: do have one that I'm wondering if you guys have discussed. I love me. Brianna, but are we discussing how we feel about billionaires? Do you know what I'm saying?

Tre'vell: So I, we have not done that topic. Yeah.

Mungi: Am I going to get in trouble? Am I going to get in trouble for saying that?

Because I love her, but like again,

Tre'vell: billionaires. Who we want to have a conversation about on our show, but we haven't done it yet because we know that the people will riot. Okay. Listen. Okay. And so we haven't done it yet, but we have, we've hinted at that conversation in particular about we love Rihanna or we love Beyonce, but.

The capitalism of it all is a little, itchy you now do you really need that much more money to,

Mungi: yeah. Or Jay Z that is you do so much good but are you sure this new investment thing is like actually helping black people or. Is it just another, oh my God?

Tre'vell: We, we were going to do, I don't know if you remember when Jay Z announced like his deal or whatever with the NFL is related, we didn't end up doing an episode, but we did do a section, a segment on the show talking about just the.

The odd nature of that relationship. We all have been protesting and boycotting the NFL for the last year and a half. And you just going to come out of nowhere and make a deal. You thought, with the oppressor, what are you doing?

Mungi: Everyone says just wait and see what happens. Like when you comment about it and you're like, but what am I waiting for?

What do you mean? Wait and see what am I waiting for?

Tre'vell: Exactly. You want me to wait until they prove me. Like we all know what this game is. We know what this capitalism thing is, but yeah, those are the types of conversations that our show is all about doing from a specific, like black queer perspective.

We sent her blackness, we sent her queerness, we sent her transness And we're just, we try not to be as concerned with whiteness and the ways that it, corrupts so much about our lives.

Mungi: okay. So everyone goes listen to Fanti. There may be one on some of the topics we just discussed, but don't come at us.

So speaking of people coming at us, I'm wondering what has sustained you in difficult moments, and like in tough times, what sort of keeps you going on your purpose work in, and being your true self? What maintains you?

Tre'vell: This is a tough question because the whole, I know we're in this, in the middle of this, like self-care self-love movement, but it is something that I struggle with because I'm a workaholic.

And because I. Not very much the transformative power that like media can have for folks, because I know the impact that has had specifically for me and wants to ensure that, those many representations and opportunities that are out there for folks to see themselves, to see other possibilities of living and showing up and moving through the world, making sure that they're as expansive as possible because, The life that I have now, I would have never imagined based off of the people who I grew up around and the types of media that I had access to.

And so I think for me, there's a poem that I often revisit that I find deeply motivating. I actually have the book that it's in next to me. It's a Lucille Clifton poem. And the name of the poem is I think it's technically untitled, but we all just use the first line of it, which is once you celebrate with me and it goes, won't you celebrate with me?

What I have shaped into a kind of. I had no model born in Babylon, both nonwhite and woman. What did I see to be accepted myself? I made it up here on this bridge between star shine and clay, my one hand holding tight. On the other hand, come celebrate with me that every day something has tried to kill me and has failed.

And I find that super. Affirming and super motivating because so much about my life is self-made because I did not have those representations. I did not have people that I could talk to about being a journalist that is black and non-binary and training. I did not have, I didn't have trans community rights.

To tell me and advise me on how to how to love my body, how to comport myself in the ways that are most affirming and ensure safety. And so that poem. When I'm having a tough time, I revisit that poem as a means of re-motivating myself of recognizing the journey that I've been on, the things that I've been through, and the fact that all of the foolishness has come up against me.

It has failed because I'm here and I'm doing the damn thing and I am a bad bitch all at.

Mungi: Absolutely. Are there people who have inspired

Tre'vell: you? So the two possible models that I often talk about though, I have complex relationships with these individuals are Andre, Leon Talley.

Mungi for those who don't know was a legendary editor at Vogue, the highest-ranking black person for a long time at Vogue. I first came to his brilliance when he was a judge on America's next top model. And seeing him take up space in the way that he took up space as a big black presence was deeply and motivating everything, honey.

Okay. The briefcases, the caftans, there's just so much about Andre, Leon Talley that is larger than life. And that connected with the young queer budding non-binary person deep down in my spirit. And then the second person also somebody of America's next top model fame was miss J Alexander A.

Long time runway diva, extraordinaire, coach, fabulous individual. Who is who exhibits a gender non-conformity in how they take up space. Both of them were the first time that I saw real people. Like not characters on TV, not, comedians doing a bit, but they're the first time that I saw real people who just showed a little bit of what life could be like.

If, and when I was able to like, come into myself, affirm myself and be that, fully and express all of that out loud. So those are the two that are mine. I have always been my long-term possibility model. And then in terms of contemporarily, I think of just, I look out at the vastness of in particular black, queer and trans people who are like taking up space who are doing.

They who are like pushing the bounds of what we know to be as possibilities. Those are the folks that I find deeply inspiring. So like whether that's Raquel Willis, whether that's Janet mock, whether that is Michaele street, whether that is fade me redwood, whether that is, these people that I know I've come to know.

They're brilliant. And their unique lens in vantage on life that I think is deeply instructive and motivates a load via and manana is another, non-binary person in particular whose work I find deeply invigorating and aspiration.

Mungi: And I, okay. I imagine that you are, a possible model for some people.

And so I wonder if you have a piece of advice that you would share with people who are in the margins and don't see themselves represented in the mainstream yet.

Tre'vell: So one of the main pieces, I do a lot of talks with like young journalists and creatives and one of the things that I often say to them, but I think anybody, no matter where they are in their life experience can take something away from is a bad bitch, but be open to critique.

Yeah. I feel as young people, as queer people, as black people, as women in films, we often find ourselves in spaces, doing stuff that we, that other people don't think we can handle that other people don't think we can accomplish. We find ourselves in these spaces with people, giving us the side-eye and being like, Do you deserve to be here, right?

And so being a bad bitch is about going into these spaces, going into these experiences, and realizing that you deserve to be there, that everything that you have done in your life has led you to this particular point. And you absolutely deserve it, but be open to critique because of even the baddest bitch.

Right to make you even worse. And so I find that can be deeply instructive because we need to affirm ourselves when we go into these spaces when we are lonely, only in these spaces. But we also need to recognize that some of these old white motherfuckers who have been here forever, can teach you something that you can then freak and turn to your own benefit as you continue on in your career.

So that's the main piece of advice that I like to share. Be a bad bitch, but be open to critique. I think it's

Mungi: perfect. It's yes, go into these spaces and be confident you getting there and being in the room and, like sending that imposter syndrome to the side. Don't close off to what you could be.

You're supposed to be learning in these spaces.

Tre'vell: I like exactly. Everything. Everything is about. Everything's a plot toward your next opportunity. Okay. And so even if you are in space and the white motherfuckers are getting on your nerves because they are discounting your abilities, they're discounting your voice.

They're discounting what you bring to the table, figure out what things you can learn while you're in that will set you up for your next opportunity, that will allow you to be even more. Secure and when you reach that point, it'll allow you to negotiate better. It'll allow you to speak up and take up more space better.

It will. I think it will have an overall transformation in how you move through space. If you go in thinking you are being that bad bitch, but also being open to critique and learning and growth

Mungi: 100%. So what would you say is your greatest fear for humanity?

Tre'vell: Oh my God. My greatest fear for humanity, I'm going to use this opportunity to get on my soapbox and talk about the cell that is gender, the prison.

That is gender. Okay. And what I mean by that is we are all moving through this world. In ways that we don't even realize are a restriction on ourselves, because we are trying to be that ideal image of a man or that ideal image of a woman, not realizing the ways in which those conceptions don't allow us to actually.

In our full brilliance, they don't allow us to actualize the fullness of our humanity because we feel like, men aren't supposed to show emotion or we feel like women aren't supposed to have. Facial hair or we feel like, trans people is an abomination and creation of, a Hollywood writer's room or the back alleys in New York City.

We have these, historical conceptions about how we are supposed to show up in the world and we don't realize the ways in which. Every single societal ill that we are talking about can be traced back to our problematic conceptions of identity, particularly when it comes to gender.

And if you are able to liberate yourself from. The manhood that you thought and that you were taught to uphold. If you're able to liberate yourself from the womanhood and the femininity that you were taught to aspire to, and for me, non-binary and trans. If we continue to liberate ourselves from all of those conceptions and all of that indoctrination that took place that told us how we were supposed to show up and move through the world.

On the other side of that is freedom. It is liberation. All of these conversations that we're having right now about freedom, work about movement, work about, trying to get our people free. We also have to free ourselves from the confined. Gender. And so my fear is that we will not confront gender for the colonialist white supremacist project that it is.

My fear is that we will continue to move through the world and make non-binary and trans people feel as if we are some aberration of humanity, as opposed to the divine beings that we are. And my hope and my goal is that as folks are challenged by the ways and the freedoms that they see us as non-binary and trans folks exhibiting and tapping into that they will find what freedom looks like for them, that they will liberate themselves from.

From all of the strictures that our white supremacist patriarchal capitalist society has foisted upon us. And they will discover a world different that holds all of us as much as possible.

Mungi: 100% also what, you know what you're saying makes sense. As you said, like the things that we don't even think about how we are affected by gender.

I read an article maybe two days ago that was talking about how, when we read something, if someone puts her or her before he him, or if they speak of something like the president or a leader and they write it in the feminine that it pauses. And we like to get delayed in our reading because we're confused as to how this as a woman.

And so like when my mom speaks about God, she always says she, and people will be like, what exactly am I girl, just keep doing it because why are we assuming God isn't.

Tre'vell: Period and right. We often don't think, I feel like when we talk about homophobia and transphobia to be specific, we always can see how those conversations are related to gender, but we often feel as if homophobia and transphobia only impact queer and trans people.

We don't recognize the ways in which our homophobia and transphobia actually impact. Heterosexual identified people and CIS identified people as well because it reifies, these boxes that are supposed to exactly. And the ways that we're supposed to communicate and the things that are deemed right.

And plausible and the things that are deemed aberrations. But if we begin to realize how. An individual's transphobia does not only impact trans people, but it also necessarily dictates how I am supposed to show up in the world as well. I think that is when we will begin to see greater accountability.

Right now in our culture, Bootsy bad-ass is out here saying his foolishness talking about Lil NasX right? The baby is perpetuating HIV stigma. All of these conversations are happening right now. We think that it's targeted at LGBTQ folks, not realizing the ways in which all of these isms and obias are what I call them, how all of these isms and obias literally impact every single living human being on this planet.

And. If you don't rid yourself personally, and your space of homophobia and transphobia, you will never be free. You will never get to that promised land that you say you're working toward because your liberation is necessarily linked to mine. If I, as a black queer nonbinary person of trans experience, can't be free you as that black man or that black woman will never be free.

Mungi: And okay. So the flip of that is what is your greatest hope for humanity?

Tre'vell: My greatest hope for humanity. Oh my God. I can. The funny part is I can do the pessimistic thing very easily. Like I can tell you what the fuck is wrong. Very easily. The idea of hope, you know what my hope for humanity, I'm going to speak directly to my non-binary and trans siblings and my hope for.

Then, for them, for us is that we will see the promised land that we specifically are working toward. That we will be affirmed in our fullness, that we will be able to move through the world without fear of whatever violence is being enacted upon us. That is my hope for queer and trans people specifically And then for the folks who aren't queer or trans who aren't non-binary or gender non-conforming my hope is that y'all get out of the way and allow us to fully unfold into our brilliance.

That is my hope. I need people to move and let us queer and trans people drag you to that possibility that you don't even know exists. Because you're caught up in, being that man and being that woman that you were told that you were supposed to be, let us drag your ass to liberation, so that you can see the beauty of the imaginations that we have.

And the possibilities that we create every day by our mere existence, that.

Mungi: I will let you drag me there. Like I'm down.

Tre'vell: It might be a little hard now, I want an easy road. There might be some bumps in the road, hit your head every now and again, but I promise

Mungi: you it isn't that,

Tre'vell: period.

Mungi: Exactly. Yeah. Tre'Vell thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'd like to have the greatest time speaking.

Tre'vell: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I hope

Mungi: you enjoyed this conversation today and don't forget to hit subscribe and give the show a rating and review wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Follow me at Mungi dot on Instagram. I'd love to hear from you and get your feedback on the show.

I'll be back in a week with a new episode. Thank you for listening to Everyday Ubuntu. Thank you so much for listening to a podcast by The Brand is Female I'm Eva Hartling. And this episode was produced by our team sound engineering by Isabel Morris's research and production support. Claire marketing and digital growth. Kayla Gillis and partnerships, Natalie hope.