Ep.19: Dennis Marcus | Founder & Executive Director | Ripples of Hope

This week, host Mungi Ngomane is joined by Dennis Marcus, the Executive Director of Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights UK, an educational charity that works to inspire people to make human rights a reality in their everyday lives. Dennis co-founded the social impact agency Ubuntu London, working with leading politicians, global NGOs, and high profile activists, including honouring Nelson Mandela's co-accused Denis Goldberg, Ahmed Kathrada, and Andrew Mlangeni. Dennis also managed Patricia Scotland QC's successful 2015 bid to become the first female Secretary-General of the Commonwealth. He is a member of the Strategic Council of the Patchwork Foundation and the Committee for the Cherry Groce Memorial.

In this episode, Mungi and Dennis discuss his connection to Ubuntu from his youth, and his current project, The World Reimagined, focused on the Transatlantic Slave Trade— how we understand it and how it impacts us all. He also shares a comparison between two of his identities, South African and German, and how both have approached their history.

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Full Episode Transcript

Mungi Ngomane: Dennis Marcus, welcome to the Everyday Ubuntu podcast. I'm very excited to be speaking with you today.

Dennis Marcus: hi, delighted to be speaking with you as always a joy.

Mungi Ngomane: I'm going to jump right in. And the first question I love to ask is about our resumes and how they're not a full explanation of who we are as a person. And because of that, I'm wondering, what would you say is missing from your resume that people should know about?

Dennis Marcus: I knew this was coming up because as a dedicated Everyday Ubuntu listener I really liked this question. But I've got to say for me, it's a real challenge because it's been an awfully long time since I've written a resume. We've I don't know where I'd begin to be.

We set up our own company in 2014 Laura, my wife, and I and since then we haven't really gone, gone out to a seat we've created, we work with partners on projects. We've been asked to do different projects and so on. That there isn't a defined career path, and I think maybe that is my journey.

Hopefully says about me, which is that it's not really about the title. It's about the work and the purpose and doing things that we feel are exciting and important. And that gives us energy. And I don't want to give the impression that I'm like a cat chasing after a piece of fluff, that's just appeared and, a month after that.

And that's the latest, most exciting thing. But really, we've had the great privilege of working with incredible people and on, things that have made a difference. That's what we look for, meaning and purpose. And if I were to write my resume, I hope that's something that would be captured, maybe.

Mungi Ngomane: okay. Then speaking of meaning and purpose, what would you say is your purpose work? What is the work that you wake up for and excites you?

Dennis Marcus: We've got I'm working on two, really a meaningful project at the moment. And an organization at the moment, one in the Robert F. Kennedy human rights the UK, and the other is the world we imagined, but to go deeper in terms of the theory of change brings to those organizations, which I guess is where your question is is, that I'm half African half German British citizen.

So an intriguing mix. But I've always been very very connected to the idea of Ubuntu as obviously, you are. And I've always, used that definition of, I am who I am because of who we all are that mutuality of existence that interconnectedness, and has been a political geek who my parents and my sister always saw, lying on the lounge reading big political biographies growing up.

And truly geeking out. I always combine that. Pardon me with the words, Robert F. Kennedy. And this was even before I got my current job. So I should say I'm not just totally indoctrinated is the idea of and Bobby Kennedy went to South Africa in 1966 and he spoke to a group of students and he said, every time a person stands up for an ideal or acts to improve a lot of others or strikes out against.

They send forth a tiny ripple of hope and all of those ripples coming together from a million different centers of energy and daring can create a current that can overcome the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance. So for me, I've always combined that idea of this ever-expanding web of interconnectivity and neutrality of existence.

And I've always thought, every action you take, yes, it will be you spoke of hope, but actually, every action you take can send a ripple of some sort. And sometimes, the absence of an action is also a decision. So that's where I've become really conscious of how intentional people become and how people think about their impact on the world and the impact on others and how we are connected and why it's important that we're connected.

And so that's been, the driving-like way of thinking about the world that's driven my work, which is how can I support, help people figure out how they want to impact us and make the biggest impact possible. And that's the purpose. I bring to it.

Mungi Ngomane: I love that. And also is, used to hate when people would ask this question, but do you have a favorite politician?

Dennis Marcus: do I have a favorite politician? You know what? I don't, I have huge admiration for lots of different politicians. I've worked with a lot of politicians. Such different strengths and I don't think there's any such thing as a perfect politician, they are all people of that their moment, their context and they bring different strengths, different weaknesses to those roles and recognizing just how broad the different phases of a politician roll.

And the politician's role is very different depending on. Who they are being a freedom fighter. A politician is very different from being a leader in government. It requires you know it can require different skills being opposition and being effective and, causing a change in how people understand the world.

It can be different from administering the government agenda. So I don't really have a particular politician that I would point to, that people have extraordinary gifts. And you've got to admire all of them. I think, what I've seen from people I've had the fortune of working with and the and I think when what I really admire about politicians is when they've had the chance or taken the chance or made the transfer themselves to think really deeply about what society should create for people.

And what does that look like in action? How do we go beyond, I believe in. To what does fairness look like? What is, what are the demand of us to do? How do we move beyond espousing values to the deed, to the action, and being able to articulate that part? And I think those are the politicians that very often stay true.

And I think that's one of the things that really marked out that generation of anti-apartheid leaders of Mandela. The depth of thinking and conviction allowed them, I think the key part to that story of resilience, the key part to their story of achieving their outcome.

So that's something that I think I deeply admire and I think is usually a very often why those politicians are particularly successful or.

Mungi Ngomane: and I know that, you mentioned working with politicians and that you wrote speeches for some, could you speak about writing? I'm always very interested in it. A four. I know that power of people's stories is important to you, but how do you. Speeches for politicians that really reflect them and their

Dennis Marcus: their message, ink one of the great privileges of being a speechwriter that you get to spend quite a lot of time with people and you get to know them. And I think if the relationship is working really well, then you spend time and you have the opportunity to understand how they form their beliefs, was that, where their theory of change, whether.

WherWhere their way of looking at the world comes from. And I think, that's fundamental to my approach to speech writing and my approach to everything else, which is, I very much believe that our reality is created by the decisions we make. We take every day and everything a part of our lives.

And ultimately those decisions are shaped by our mindsets and attitudes, by what we understand about who we are, how we came to be here about the world around us. And that works in two ways. For me to support somebody and in writing a speech and developing a speech, I've got understand that about them.

And then we've always got to figure out if there is an idea and a message that they want to share with an audience, how do we think about not only what the how the audience views the world? How can we develop that further so that we can inspire them to action? I believe very much that speeches are about action.

 What are people going to do differently? Because we spoke today, how can we shape the way that they're thinking about the world around them and what's possible for them? So they can then go and take action. And that's where a Ted talk that changed my life, Simon Sinek thought with Y the idea that everything should begin with, why is something important?

Why is it urgent, whiteness? How can we act? And I think what's easy for us very often to describe them, what to describe it. What's close to us. What should we do? But actually, the motivating force is the why, but understanding what it is, why it's important, why it's urgent and what can we can do about it.

So that's the approach I brought to that bought the work for speech writing, but that's also the approach to strategy. That's the approach to developing programs and events because it's about storytelling and it's about them through that storytelling. Hopefully. Showing people possibilities about how they can take action, make a difference, having that

Mungi Ngomane: have you ever been asked to write for someone and just known that. Either. I dunno, they're like persona or personality. Didn't match up with your values and you just had to say, no,

Dennis Marcus: I've never been put in that position actually.

Mungi Ngomane: That's good.

Dennis Marcus: Because of course, because the conversations almost start earlier and there are points when you're truly in sync with the person that you're writing for, and you've worked with them long enough were, to be honest, you can't quite tell where their writing begins and your writing begins.

And that's when, as a speechwriter, I think you've reached sort of the peak, which is that you're able to articulate stories as they would wish to.

Mungi Ngomane: Yeah. you mentioned that you're

Dennis Marcus: you mentioned that

Mungi Ngomane: human rights in the UK, and you're the executive director. I'm wondering what you learned from that role because I know you work with children a lot so I'm wondering what you've learned from the role and from the children and the kids that work within that.

Dennis Marcus: so with Robert F. Kennedy human rights UK. So we're affiliated with the US organization, which is run by the human rights activist Kerry Kennedy. And, know, they've been running an education program all over the world for years incredibly successfully. And one of the things that we were really looking to do when we brought it to the UK is just to speak to the local context.

And in the UK human rights has got a really significant challenge, which is that for a lot of people, it feels really remote fields of distance from their lives because of the traditional sort of narrative around that has been. Human rights are about other people and other places who are suffering or, in the two-thousands, a lot of the public human rights discourse was around human rights and stopping us from deporting terror.

All human rights because obviously, the general understanding of human rights from a legal perspective, it's about the relationship between the individual and the state and powerful. Is that it puts it very much into the preserve of the legal world. And if you're fortunate, then hopefully that's got nothing to do with you.

So in, in many ways, the question for us was how can we make it relevant and local? I think one of the key things that we've learned over the last three years of working is that part of it again, is about how people understand the connection and between human rights and the narrative.

What I mean by that is, you often hear about, everybody has human rights, they are then abuse, and then we have to respond it's a reactive relationship with a negative relationship where it is about the response to abuse, which in a way puts the focus on abuse. It, it makes the abuse, the focus of all the conversation and it actually locates often the power of somebody taking away your rights as people often say rather than with you, and what we found is that kind of narrative, doesn't account for systemic outcomes it doesn't account for systemic racism or misogyny because we're because we understand single acts much better than we do understand and can process systemic outcomes.

One of the things that we've taken into our work with school is a slightly adapted narrative. And this is not to say that responding to. Isn't vitally important. Of course, it is, but it's part of a picture rather than the whole picture. And so what we say, everybody has human rights and humanity has come together, to make that declaration.

But just because we say so it doesn't automatically make it a reality. You say you have the right to education. It doesn't, pop to school. That's not how it works. It takes decisions and actions every single day to make human rights a reality. And what's really important about that is actually puts the onus on us to live up to those ideals and make them a reality, whether it is in our families and our communities in business and government.

And so it puts the onus on you. Part of that might be responding to human rights abuse, but gives you the opportunity every day. Whether it's simply how you treat somebody with dignity to act in a way that can make human rights a reality. And we found, and that's obviously. From Robert Kennedy's human rights point of view, would that quote of every time you stand up for an ideal or strike out against injustice, you send forth the ripple of hope, every single one of your actions.

And if I can just give that quick example, privacy, let's say the government has got regulation responsibilities and designing citizen services. They've also businesses got compliance and GDPR but they also have the opportunity. Design privacy as a product feature, as we're seeing in lots of different products at the moment. But then if you think about family life if I've taken an unbelievably beautiful photo of my sons, should I be putting that on Facebook and Instagram, Twitter? And does that make their right to privacy a reality or not now?

There's no, yes, or no answer to that, but it's about becoming. Of the question, if my son sees a phone lying on the table, what does he do? Does he look through it? Or does he give it back without looking at it? And the reason that's important, that's not like traditionally human rights discourse or thought of that way.

But it's about, we've got to build the muscle memory. As Kerry Kennedy often says, got to build the muscle memory of matching ideals. If we know anything from all the leaders that we've seen around the world it is that you don't suddenly get power and then learn how to make, turn ideas into action.

That's something that you've been practicing in your day-to-day every single day. Because then when you have power or when you're tested, you're more likely to do it. And so that context, I think is important because that's like the narrative and the approach we've taken to school.

The way it's been picked up and students are connected to human rights and are able to articulate it at its essence is incredible. It's inspiring. And, they recognize and step into their power to create change and, connecting them to the work of human lives over the last 17 years.

That seems so much progress around the world because people have made decisions and taken actions including making laws. Incredibly powerful because it says it's not necessarily up to individuals independently, but we are working in this movement together and we are

 connected in whatever contribution we can make.

That was a very long answer to your question.

Mungi Ngomane: children the future. I spoke to some of them and they were very smart and impressive.

Dennis Marcus: Yeah. And I think that they challenge and they question and their curiosity and there is a demand for change. There is hunger because obviously, students are very conscious, it is their future is their world as well. And at the ripples of hope festival that we're hosting in Manchester in September, we have the schools there and we've got poetry created and films created by those schools

and it's really unlike its outstanding work. And I think young people's ability to express what the world could and should look like is very important. Cause it reminds us of the urgency and our responsibility, if we have the privilege of being able to make decisions that can influence that whether it's the corporate world government

Mungi Ngomane: and I know that you're also working on something called the world. Re-imagined so I'm wondering if you could share that with my listeners who may not know about it.

Dennis Marcus: Sure. So the world reimagined is a new national art education project here in the UK. That is about transforming our understanding of the transatlantic slave trade. And it impacts on all of us

 and the way that this came about was in 2018 on the centenary of Mandela's birthday we were hosting an event for Andrew and Guinea.

It was on trial and prison with Mandela and just a wonderful human being. And I was talking with my co-founder Michelle Gail about how South Africa processes history. And how important those conversations around truth and reconciliation have been to at least secure some progress towards making racial justice and rebalancing and that's imperfect progress, that, that conversation and having that consciously and intentionally is really important.

Similarly, I'm half German, that Germany has had to do some work, right? Multiple times in the last interview. They have tried to do that again in perfectly, again, it's not, it's not a straight line. But I think both of the societies have shown how important it is to process history.

And then when usually the UK and we don't quite have that open dialogue. I went through the English school system and really all I heard about the transatlantic slave trade was that William Wilberforce was the white guy who ended up

Mungi Ngomane: does he ending if we're not talking about but it was.

Dennis Marcus: And that's exactly it. And we talked about how, if we're going to Michelle, who, who obviously comes at it from a position of having been a public figure as an actor and singer in the UK, since the nineties and has experienced, all the way from community activism, all the way to how you're treated in the.

Just the complexities of racial justice in the UK. We talked about if we're going to make racial justice around in the future and the UK, that we're gonna have to process our history and at least acknowledge and understand the journeys that we've had to this point if we're going to be able to take the next step of the journey together in a much more, just way in a way that speaks to dignity and acknowledgment.

And we talked about how do we take that out to. To people who haven't yet had the opportunity to learn about it because it wasn't part of the education system. And we came across sculptor trails. There was a project called to be in the city of Manchester, which they did after the Manchester arena bombing, which was about celebrating the many different dimensions of Manchester.

And there were a hundred sculptures all uniquely individually created by painted by artists to bring to life different dimensions of Manchester. And we thought isn't this an amazing proven public engagement tool. And we can literally take people on a journey of discovery through different cities in the UK to learn about the transatlantic slave trade, but also to go before that, the story starts much earlier in mother Africa and me, for artists to bring to life different themes, like the reality of being enslaved from capture to voyage, delight in different settings all the way through.

To, to honoring and celebrating those who resisted and their descendants who achieved incredible things through still we rise to the theme of reimagining the future. So now that we've walked this journey of discovery together, what is the future we can create together now that we see each other and that acknowledgment.

And so it started off as, oh, could we do the sculpture trail in London? Wouldn't that be? We're now confirmed in 70 cities across the UK taking place next August, October we've walked together, incredible people like our founding artists a Bahrain who has designed the base sculpture that these trails will be based on.

We've got people like the cast of West-end Hamilton involved in creating art education programs that we'll see, hundreds of schools across the country create their own Globes and their own poetic expression. And, we've got community coordinators in the different cities because supporting and helping organizations in those cities who are doing the amazing work of making racial justice.

Reality has its own events. So that through the trails, essentially what we are is a platform, a gateway for people to engage and learn about racial justice and its history. And then as they go, I want us to enter this. We can say, look at these amazing organizations doing this work. So that through this program, we build understanding but we also build the community, the family of support for racial justice work across the country.

And, we've been working on this for a year before George Floyd was murdered. We've worked together, incredible group of people rose, Hudson, locum, Dover our patron, Jillian, Joseph, who the big Buena. I can list our entire board. They're all incredible people in very different ways.

But amazing leaders. And from that foundation, when people want to say action after George Floyd was murdered and the response has been overwhelming. And it sounds weird to say it because of course, the subject matter of the transatlantic slave trade and much of the injustice that we talk about are very difficult, but the desire of people.

From very unexpected quarters and some centers has been very joyful and inspiring.

Mungi Ngomane: I think it's important because I know that I think I read Rennie ETO lodges book, why longer talking to white people about race. And after I did it, I was explaining to friends in us how in the UK.

Dennis Marcus: yeah. No, it's a mind-boggling thing is that. That, that was emancipation and abolition was only paid off in 2015. It is so incredibly recent and it was so incredibly connected. And I think, one of the things that we really want to help people understand is how, conversations around history often to oh that's the part as it actually deeply connected to where we are now and who we are now, what this country is now.

And that's not to say. This is not about finger-pointing. It's not about blame. It is about understanding and recognizing that acknowledging this history, isn't a lack of confidence in Britain. It is saying that if we acknowledged this and make racial justice around it in the future, that is the best we can be.

And that's worthy of us opening dialogue and inviting people into that conversation who haven't had the opportunity to take bar before. And, there's a great Maya Angelou quote. That we hold dear which is when you know better, you got to do better, but we've got to have the chance.

We've got to have the chance to know better. And, so let's, we want to offer that opportunity to everybody to get involved, to learn, and to add their voice.

Mungi Ngomane: yeah. And, ignoring history doesn't allow anyone to know better. And, a lot of the subject matter

Mungi Ngomane: So I wonder what I wonder when this sort of sustained you in difficult moments.

Dennis Marcus: Of all, I've got to put this African bit into context and how we're connected I I think sorry to do the name dropping. As my granddad was the accountant, the law firm that Mandela and Tambo back in the fifties and sixties. And so I had the great privilege in the nineties of music, meeting all the people and all of these great leaders and.

You can walk away from conversations with people like and Dennis Goldberg and Ramon gurney and Joffrey. And it would be lost and, all the people I've had the privilege to meet and not say I've got to do my part. And I think that sends a mission that sense of. And inspiration.

They've always given me and what, knowing the person behind the myth is like getting to know the person, the humor, this rent as well as, in some cases, the private suffering or what people went through is deeply moving. And what's amazing. Is it in, when you see that humanity,

and you can see how they made it. I think at four to five, you when it gets challenging, it doesn't mean I don't get stressed. It doesn't mean that I don't feel that my to-do list is chasing me down the road with a Pitchfork right

Dennis Marcus: a festival in a pandemic is a questionable life choice, but you know what the festival is coming together wonderfully, so we're going to keep going.

But yeah, certainly, it puts it into context and I think that's where the great joy of doing work of meaning is that when you see you make a difference, quite frankly, much more to you than it does now in terms of energy. And quite frankly, refilling.

Mungi Ngomane: And know the answer to this next one, but who are of the people who have inspired you?

Dennis Marcus: Look, so many people, it's funny because you start a list and you just keep talking which might be the defining thread of this podcast. I'm sorry. I always start with Andrea manGuinea Just because he was such a funny, charming, strong principle unrelenting.

Perfect. And, the time that I got to know him, always he could treasure with his family I didn't get to, didn't get to know as well. Dennis Goldberg. These are people who in the eighties were arguing for their ideas, that you can imagine what it was like when they were in their twenties because they hadn't, they've lost none of that fierceness.

And they brought it to life in such amazing different ways. And I think what they really showed me was that, that there is no one way there is no, this is the way you have to take action. This is the way you have. Behave as a leader. It comes in many different shapes. You have to find your path.

And I think that's, that's, I think one of the lessons of the anti-apartheid movement is that there were so many people involved. Yes, there is so much focus on the icons. But as there were so many different people at every level of society who contributed so much, whether it was seen or not seen or acknowledged or not acknowledged.

And when you understand. It's very empowering because you're not trying to copy. Somebody else allows you to step into this is what I can do and that self-awareness, and this is what I put to do. And also value other people in saying we can work together to make this thing, whatever that thing is to be.

Mungi Ngomane: yeah. And funny that you say other people in self-awareness in June people aren't surprised to know that always compare me to them.

This is something that I have always done and who knows when I'll stop. after the speech, you sent some advice. Really connected to conversations I've been having with people and it really stuck with me and I've, I've saved that message. And I wonder if you could share it shine a light on it, cause I'm sure there are other people who do the same thing as me and I really appreciate it.

And I think that it'd be helpful if in case there's someone out there that is feeling the same way as me if you could share what you sent to me.

Dennis Marcus: Essentially what I tried to say was what was, what I spoke about, which is especially when it comes to public speaking, people think that there is one way to do it and one way has and there's one way of having power. And, like I can appreciate that. I'm like when it comes to public speaking, I would have a show pony.

I got a lot of energy from it. And. But I may not connect with the audience in the way that other people may connect with the audience because audiences are rich and textured and different from the people who speak. And so what people are really, truly connected to are I believe ideas and how the stories and recognizing they come from an authentic place.

And there are many different ways of performing. Delivering that message. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be the great orator. It can be somebody who invites you into that space. I think that's something that you do so powerfully and I think that's something that should be.

Recognize as an incredibly powerful form of communication. It's no less persuasive. There are no lessons. It's just, it is different. And while I'm sure it appeals to everybody, different people are gonna respond to things in different ways that there's no one way of doing that.

And I guess for people listening if you don't feel competent or, around. The Persona and sometimes it's about having attention on you. What is the story that you're telling you to believe in the story?

Mungi Ngomane: Yeah, no, I really do appreciate it. So thank you again for saying that. And then I'd love to know what is your greatest humane?

Dennis Marcus: not gonna lie the I think one of the great changes when I had. Was that you become much more long-term in thinking? Because I think, our day to day society focusing very much on, what have I got to do today? What does tomorrow look like? It's focused on the immediate and short term and the loss of intended them.

And I thought previously, but, I had a relatively good long-term view, but actually when I think about my boys are three in one currently method acting as a T-Rex pterodactyl, respectively. Because at that age I'm kinda thinking of, what does that life look like in 35 years and 50 years in 70 years?

And that certainly has put much greater urgency The climate crisis for me of something that I used to think was important but didn't necessarily act on because I did lots of things in different social impact spaces. But that's become much more and present for me because he can see it playing out disastrously potentially in their life, in our lifetimes, in their lifetime.

And I think that's the greatest existential fear because, if you think about putting it together with human rights The climate crisis in dangerous limits stops your ability to make human rights, the other reality and that's what. So if we don't act on that then with sufficient speed then

Mungi Ngomane: Yeah, I remember. Almost 10, 11 years ago, we did this with the elders and it was like the elders and their grandkids climate change 10 years ago. like, so what do guys want to do? And we're like you're the ones

Dennis Marcus: to

Mungi Ngomane: problem. I don't this don't know it would be nice to help us. And it's a decade later and getting.

Dennis Marcus: ah, that's right. I wish I had him to respond to that, which was to say it is getting better. I think, again, we're seeing people understand that in a very different way. It is shocking but unsurprising or, yeah, I think it's that way around rather than providing them not talking, how people are connected to the floods in Germany.

I think it a very visceral. To local impact here. And I think, it's always one of those things that the closer to home it is, and people, I think often see that urgency and feel that urgency much more deeply. So hopefully where we're at a positive tipping point rather than a negative tipping point, but we, that we are at that tipping point and we'll see where it goes.

We have to act to make sure it goes through.

Mungi Ngomane: Yeah, you're probably right. getting better in the fact that we

Mungi Ngomane: and we have more studies, maybe I'm biased that looking at it from us perspective where there, there's an entire political party that still doesn't believe in it. So mean, like it's not getting better.

If we still have people literally denying this is coming and happening at this moment.

Dennis Marcus: Absolutely. One would say that on one hand, it's ever hard as does nice but at the same time in trench media systems also make it harder for people to access that information in a way as we exist, it can exist in narrative and media silos. So it's a real challenge. And I think, the question of global political leadership is a very difficult one.

It's been an intense five, 10 years. On how the global international political system functions are my understated, the way of saying that without pointing fingers at particular people. And so I think what happens in Glasgow, this who's going to be really important.

Because realistically, of course, everybody can take action and should take action and must take action. But unless we understand that systems have to change, the incentives of systems have to change. Then we're not really addressing

Mungi Ngomane: And what is your greatest hope for humanity?

Dennis Marcus: people. I think people's ability to act to people's ability and capacity for compassion and empathy and understanding of. Is extraordinary. And I think, one of the things is that too often when we've secured progress, we take, we can take that progress for granted.

And whether you've. To leave or to remain you. No one can say that EU membership was secured and then we didn't work to create a culture that supported the, and if you don't create a culture to support those different ideas or different things of progress, then you will lose those things.

We've seen that with human rights around the world. And so I think one of the pieces is really how do we, through our campaigning work, we're active in work, create cultural spaces. We need some support because there are going to force political forces who want to take us back to working for a particular interest, which was seen very strongly needed leading to a very, a great rise in authoritarianism across the world.

So there are always going to be those forces, but I do believe in the power of people to come together and acknowledge each other and see. Quite a bit of a future together.

Mungi Ngomane: that was a very Ubuntu answer of you

Mungi Ngomane: but thank you. It lovely to speak with you.

I'll be back in a week with a new episode. Thank you for listening to Everyday Ubuntu. Thank you so much for listening to a podcast by The Brand is Female I'm Eva Hartling. And this episode was produced by our team sound engineering by Isabel Morris's research and production support. Claire marketing and digital growth. Kayla Gillis and partnerships, Natalie hope.