Ep.22: Dawn Gifford Engle | Co-Founder, Activist and Filmmaker | Acts of Peace
Today's guest is Dawn Gifford Engle. Dawn is a filmmaker, an activist, and Co-Founder of The PeaceJam Foundation. She has been recognized for excellence in filmmaking, a well-decorated director, Dawn is the recipient of 12 Best Director awards. She wrote and directed the award-winning documentary films, Rigoberta Menchu: Daughter of the Maya, Desmond Tutu: Children of the Light, Adolfo Perez Esquivel: Rivers of Hope, Oscar Arias: Without a Shot Fired, Betty Williams: Contagious Courage, The Dalai Lama -- Scientist, and Shirin Ebadi: Until We Are Free. In addition, she co-authored the book, "PEACEJAM: A Billion Simple Acts of Peace", which was published by Penguin in 2008, and she has been nominated 17 times for the Nobel Peace Prize.
The PeaceJam Foundation is creating the next generation of Nobel Peace Laureates, and in this episode, Dawn shares how the foundation came to be, the inspiring projects the youth have created, and what the most rewarding part of her work is. She also speaks about how she feels lucky to have reached her full potential, having started her career as an economist and has since added the titles - activist, author, filmmaker, mother and grandmother to her repertoire. She and Mungi discuss the Nobel laureates that have direct impacts on their lives and the promise of youth looking to bring about peace in our world.
Full Episode Transcript
Mungi Ngomane: This week, my guest is Dawn Gifford Engle, a filmmaker and activist, and co-founder of the peace jam foundation, a foundation creating the next generation of Nobel peace laureates, Dawn chairs, the origin story of peace jam. Basically how a conversation with youth, a big idea from her husband, almost no money and a visit to the Dalai Lama started everything.
We reminisced a bit about the amazing Nobel prize winners that PeaceJam has brought together. And Don also tells me about the scientific side of the Dalai Lama and the projects that have most inspired her. Here's our conversation.
Dawn Gifford Engle: Poured.
Mungi Ngomane: All right, here we go. Don Gifford angle. Welcome to the Everyday Ubuntu podcast.
I'm excited that we got to get this going. Me too. I've
Dawn Gifford Engle: I've watched you grow over the years and I'm so impressed by everything about you. And it's just a joy and an absolute joy to be here with you today.
Mungi Ngomane: Thank you. Yeah, I'm wondering. We met in Colorado and I went, how old was I? 10 or something? It was like 20 years ago.
Yeah. Oh good. Oh, good, Lord. Okay. Well, anyway, let's jump in. So my first question is about how our resumes are not really a full explanation of who we are as a person. And I'm wondering what's missing from your resume that you think people should know about. You.
Dawn Gifford Engle: I'm one of those really lucky people.
Who's had a chance to reach my full potential. I'm 64 years old. And I started out at age, 19 working as an economist for us Congress. And going to school at the same time. So I started my career early and then Changed into an activist and started Colorado friends of Tibet and started working for the Tibetan cause, and then switched over to the PCM foundation and what a learning curve, everything that we've done.
It's our 25th anniversary right now for the peace jam foundation, which my husband and I founded. And it's. Had a huge impact around the world. And then got to write a book, which he did even better than me. Then I got to direct the films, the Nova legacy film series. For example, we have been given the incredible honour of being the first ones to tell the life story and the feature-length documentary film of your grandfather and Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
And so it's been an amazing ride. I'm a mom, I'm a professional woman on the director and writer of films. I'm a grandmother. I've had a chance to experience so much of my life and to travel the world. I don't think anything's missing from my honest to God.
Mungi Ngomane: That is nice to hear. And, okay. So you mentioned that you began your career as an economist for Congress. How did you make that move over to activism?
Dawn Gifford Engle: It's because I met the Dalai Lama. So back before the Dalai Lama won the Nobel peace prize and really nobody knowing knew anything about Tibet, somebody came and met with me, an activist named Michelle
and she like, five feet tall, giant of a woman, just wow, who is this? And she told me about the human rights situation in Tibet and China. And I said that's really wrong. And I volunteered to help. And at that time, the international campaign for Tibet was just two people in a closet.
Like the office was so small. Then, it was. No one knew what we were talking about when we would have an event and we'd have a sign that said free Tibet, people will come up to us and say, I would like to get a free Tibet they didn't even know what Tibet was that it was like country, right?
This is way before the Dalai Lama won the Nobel peace prize. But because I was one of the first people to help with the international campaign for Tibet, and we drafted the first piece of legislation that tied the most favoured nation trading status for China. The human rights situation in China and especially in Tibet and became an annual vote.
And it put Tibet on the map as a serious legislative issue. I was invited to go to the very first meeting of the international campaign for Tibet and it was in Dharamsala India and the Dalai Lama came in and we got to see him in all these different settings. And he was always the same. Do you know what I mean?
Like everybody, if you were a waiter, he treated you the same as if you were an ambassador. Like he is so pure and true. And so I saw a new version of leadership where I started working for the US Senator from my state of Michigan when I was 19 years old and back then it was like madmen, all the women.
We're secretaries and answering the phone and call the men were doing policy and it was a big deal. Cause I was on the policy side. 'cause I had, I was getting a degree in economics and whatever, but that was like a major concession to have a Female have anything to do with policy. So I saw one version of leadership on Capitol Hill and a lot of it was, there was a face for the public and that was, who they really were behind the scenes.
It was different. It was a bit of an... some senators and congressmen were better than others, but being around the Dalai Lama, who's just like the real deal. It made me start to question everything like wow. You can be the political and religious leader of a people and have that kind of pure integrity.
Like no matter what he was saying, Yeah. So for him, it was like a little internal domino. It just fell inside of me and it got harder and harder to be in Washington, DC because it's all about. Power and access to power and who, how
Mungi Ngomane: exhausting is it for people to have a separate persona?
That's what I always wonder. I'm like, isn't this a lot of work for you to be these two people, but couldn't, you just be the one,
Dawn Gifford Engle: but that's not how it's taught, the people who, It's interesting back when I was working for Congress and I know things are way more polarized now, but even then when the new senators and congressmen were elected, Taken to a retreat, a Republican retreat democratic retreat.
And they were told to pick their committee assignments based on where they were going to get their campaign contributions. So even back then, and then that was 1980. Even back then. The only way to have power was to stay there. And so it became about getting reelected over and over again.
And I think that's something that's wrong because that's not how our country was set up in the United States. It's supposed to be initially it was citizen legislators. They were in Washington DC for three months a year. And they all had real jobs. Like they were a farmer or they were a doctor so we've lost that.
All of these professional politicians who it's year-round and is all about staying in Washington DC. And I think that really twists it, it's a right. It's at its heart. It's twisted. It's not any of those people's fault. It's the system, so I support term limits. I support.
Trying to get back to the, we, how much legislation does Congress pass anywhere any year? Anyway, it's gotten so polarized. They can't get much done. I don't know. Maybe if they were there, it's just there for three months, it might be better. And they had real jobs and they were like, he had to go buy groceries with real people and be with the rest of us, trying to balance our budget and live.
So anyway, it was a revelation meeting. The Dalai Lama was a revelation and it started this internal process for me. And I ended up really with Michelle Bahana as my role model of somebody who was an activist. I never really hung out with activists before and I thought, wow, she's amazing. And then she really encouraged me and.
because I did Colorado friends of Tibet. I moved from DC to Colorado cause I never saw my children and I was working 70 hours a week. I had a live-in nanny, I was doing the whole. Ginger Rogers thing, with a woman, has to be better than the manager. You've got to dance backwards and then high heels and then come home and take care of the kids and clean the house.
And so I was, I had two beautiful children and that was missing out on that. So I just questioned everything. Really. That's the answer to your question. Meaning the Dalai Lama made me question everything and. Transformed my life. And the amazing thing is that it transferred, transformed the lives of my two children as well.
My, both of my children are now Buddhist, Tibetan, Buddhists, and one son is a translator of Buddhism and that's his professional position and the other is married to a girl whose family escaped from Tibet over the mountains in Tibet to India when she was three years old. So my grandson is part Tibetan, half Tibetan
and this little pebble that the Dalai Lama dropped in my pool and just went out the ripple effects they're still going
Mungi Ngomane: out. Yeah. The ripple effects are huge. And I know that you and your husband co-founded peace jam in 1996. And I would love if you could share what inspired that and the origin story behind peace jam
Dawn Gifford Engle: is.
So for me personally, it's because I saw the impact of the Dalai Lama made on me. It was like changing and. For Yvonne. It was because he was living in a really, he's an artist. And he always said he was an artist and a really great busboy because as an artist, you always have to have systems, will support like other jobs, this is where it's all. He was a mean awesome busboy. And he was living as artists do in the roughest part of Denver. And he saw these young people and it was. Clear that they dropped out of school. Some Hispanic kids and knew him. He was always around painting and he'd work at the restaurants at night and he got into a conversation with them and he said, Okay.
Do you know who the president of the United States is? And they said, we don't know, and we don't care because he doesn't represent us. And I think you've dropped out of school. Why aren't you going to school? And they said we got a business and it's okay, you got a business. You're selling drugs in the neighborhood, don't, you want to have a better future.
We don't care. And, but he was worried about these kids. So we kept talking to them and talking to them and they tripped over the subject of South Africa because this was right after the miracle in South Africa. And again, they didn't know who the president of the United States was, but they knew all about Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela.
And it was, and they went off talking about it and saying, they, they stood up against apartheid and they were brave and they didn't use guns and they were amazing. And so this big light bulb went off over Yvonne's head, which is wow. We should put kids together with Nobel peace prize winners, the ones who are the real activists, the ones who are.
Putting their lives on the line, walking the talk, because there's all this energy that young people have. If it could be channelled in a positive way, it could be amazing. What, instead of letting young people fall between the cracks and give up and be helpless and hopeless, let's empower them.
Let's listen, let's put them together with the Nobel peace prize winners who are really leading the charge to make the world a better place. And then that would be incredible. At that point in time, I was living in Colorado. So it was he and we were both helping out a friend who was doing a tribute to the beat poets Jack Kerouac of those kinds of elegans for poets at Naropa University, which is a Buddhist-inspired university.
Anyway, we were, they were both there for 16. And he came in after this meeting with these kids in his neighbourhood who knew all about South Africa, Desmond Tutu, and Nelson Mandela. And he's like Nobel peace prize winner as a kid, we have to do this. And if my husband, but he's this fabulous, charismatic, French Bulgarian, crazy man, right?
Passionate about something. He just, he's not going to let it go. Not going to let it go. So he just kept talking to me and talking to me, and finally, I said, okay, I will help you. I will help you. After three months of listening to him, talk about it. We found to do this. And so we, he said get a meeting with the Dalai Lama because he knew that I had helped the Dalai Lama, right?
So we got a meeting with the Dalai Lama and Yvonne said, great. When's the Dalai Lama coming to meet with us. Oh, no, we are going to India. We got to meet who have an audience with the Dalai Lama. And he said I have a dollar 57 in my checking account. Like, how am I going to get to India? So we had to borrow money from friends and we went to India and met with the Dalai Lama and.
Said, I love this idea. I want to be connected with the youth in the world. They're always in the audience. I don't have anything special to do for them, with them. I love this idea. I say yes. Yeah, but don't do it just with me. Do it with other Nobel laureates too. So he gave us less than seven more Nobel peace prize winners at the top of the list was Desmond Tutu.
So we went back to Colorado and then. Yvonne's artist's loft, right? Like he has no heating asbestos is hanging out of the ceiling. Which freezing, but we have a phone and the Dalai Lama said yes. So we got on the phone. Hi, assistant to Desmond Tutu you don't know us, but my name is Dawn.
This is Yvonne, and we have a big idea. And the Dalai Lama said yes. And we're going to come to South Africa. We just would not take no for an answerback. When you, before the internet when you had to fax. Oh, God. Do you remember the fax?
Mungi Ngomane: I remember it's very large. I never learned how to use it.
Dawn Gifford Engle: So we were faxing things to South Africa.
We show up, we take the cheapest possible flight from Colorado to South Africa, which means going the wrong way around the planet. So it was three days to get there. We changed at the airport, in the bathroom. We change into nice clothes. We go for our interview. With Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
And he loved the idea and he was great. He did a fantastic interview for us. We filmed it and then he said, yes, I will do it. And then we just call the rest of the Nobel peace prize winners. We had eight Nobel peace prize winners say yes. Board of directors, not just names on a letterhead, are they are the board of directors, Yvonne and I are not even on the board.
And we really wanted this to be their international educational outreach program to these of the world. And we didn't have any money we weren't incorporated yet. But we were just on fire with this idea. We were so passionate about the idea that they said. And that's how we started. So I like to tell that story to young people because the mission of peace jam is to create a whole new generation of young leaders and to show them the power of an idea.
If you have an idea, and you're really passionate about an idea that comes through
Mungi Ngomane: and could you, could you also speak about the 1 billion acts of peace campaign. Because I've been asked recently to speak for things that have to do with like climate and the youth and kindness and the youth and everything.
These people asking me, I'm like, oh, you should really look into the 1 billion acts of peace because you're like a mission behind this thing. You're asking me to speak for reminds me of this at peace jam and it just keeps coming up. It's so interesting.
Dawn Gifford Engle: Yeah, it was really brilliant with the Nobel peace prize winners.
Did we had them all talk to us about what is. Fear for humanity. And what is the greatest hope for humanity? So we spent two years in discussion with the Nobel peace prize winners on our board. By then it was, we were up to 10 and we asked them to. Meet with each other and so we recorded those conversations.
When we were provided, like you're providing here the space for an in-depth conversation, we provided that so they could talk to each other. And then for the 10th anniversary of the Peace Jam Foundation, we had all of the Nobel peace prize winners on the board of PCM come together. So it was the largest gathering of Nobel peace prize winners.
In a world other than the Nobel foundation itself. And they came together for PCMs 10th anniversary, but they were saying to me, And Yvonne, this is historic. We have to do something big because we're here together. And we just spent all this time talking about what is the most important thing.
So let's actually do something serious. Let's do a global call to action. And so it became the 1 billion acts of peace campaign. It's really well put together. We have. Over a hundred million projects that young people have done around the world in 10 key areas, not just do something nice, but do something about climate change, do something.
And racism and hate do something about rights for women and girls, do something in these 10 key areas where if we work in these 10 key areas, we can transform the future for all of humanity. And then we give awards to the young people who do their best. We hold up projects as examples. And so it's all about empowering the next generation of young leaders.
So that they can work for the change that we need. Clearly, my generation, I'm 64 years old. We've blown it. Take a look around. It's not so good, but those who are young now have to live with this. They have to live with this coronavirus pandemic has pulled away some veins. Definitely. So we're seeing the reality of how bad things are actually that was masked by the busyness. We're also busy, and we didn't have time to stop. And look now we've had a chance to look and boy do we need to make some changes some really transformational big changes.
And so it's going to be this new generation of young people. Five to 35 who are going to make that happen and that's who we work with and that's who we try and help and support. And with the role models of the Nobel peace prize winners. Cause it's scary, trying to work for change and you need role models.
You need hard-won wisdom, you need case studies of things that worked and yeah. So we can pass it down. Wisdom from our elders and help hold up this new generation as they face this brave new world that we have in front of us right now. Yes we definitely need
Mungi Ngomane: wisdom from our elders. I'm curious to hear, what's been the sort of most rewarding part of peace jam.
What are you most proud of?
Dawn Gifford Engle: When we started a PeaceJam Desmond Tutu asked us how long is this going to go for? And we said Five years like we didn't know. And what I'm really proud of is that it's in 41 countries now.
it's reached so many young people about 1.3 million young people have participated. It's our 25th anniversary, as I said, and yes, it's a terrible time because the schools are having a hard time even being open. Yeah, but young people really have held onto this. They want it to go forward. They want it to stay alive.
It's like their lifeline. Cause the site to say connected, ways to stay connected a way to make a difference, a way to be in community. So it's become people finding their tribe, their real family. That's really what PCM has turned out to be. So I'm thrilled about that because that means it has a life of its own and it will go on even after I'm gone because it's not about me.
It's not about my husband. We were just two people who helped start it, but it's really a great idea for Nobel peace prize winners, mentoring, youth, to change the world.
Mungi Ngomane: Has anyone ever asked you who, your favourite Nobel Laureate is? I was like, I wonder if anyone's ever brought this up to them?
Dawn Gifford Engle: Yeah, we can ask that a lot with really. What I like about there are now 14 Nobel peace prize winners on our board. And it's funny cause they, the original eight got to vote about who, who got on the board that just, you don't get on the board just cause they're really picky. They want people who are committed to working with the youth and, putting the youth first.
And all of them are so different. That's what I love. I'm not mother Teresa. I'm not a Dalai Lama, but it doesn't matter what little body you're born into. Who I popped out of my mother's womb looking like this. This is the package I got. If you're Tibetan, you would say, this is one of many lifetimes I'm Christian.
So I think I got one shot, this is how I popped up. I had no control over this. And so no matter how you're born onto this planet, you can be extraordinary. You have goodness in you, you have greatness in you. You can do amazing things. You could help at least one other person just reach out your hand.
You can do it. And if we all did that, the world would be transformed. So I love the fact that all of the Nobel peace prize winners are so different because that means whoever you are, whatever your background, no matter what. You are important, precious, unique, and you can make a powerful difference now personally because I'm Christian and I love your grandfather.
And he married us in his church and kicked on South Africa. And then he told us we are never allowed to get divorced. He's by far for me, like spiritually, he's my father. But. I love all of them. I love all of them. I'll always be grateful for the Dalai Lama for saying yes, first and founding member and for transforming my life and the lives of everyone that
Mungi Ngomane: you are right.
There are very different. I had Jody Williams on the podcast, and then we talked about, how Betty Williams had just passed and it's just, to think about all of them and how different they are, but like such big personalities still. Wow. Wow. And is there a project maybe one or two projects that the young people have come up with that has really inspired you?
Dawn Gifford Engle: There are so many of the first projects that the young people came up with was a way to save energy at school and. It's something that the teachers at the school and the administration at the school have been trying for a long time is to get reduce energy consumption and increase recycling.
But when it was coming from adults, the teenagers at the school didn't care. But when the. Teenagers in the Peace Jam club at the school started to care, then it changed and they did education campaigns and just unplugging your computer every day. Everything that's plugged in and turned on. If you turn it off, when you go home, it actually saves a lot of energy and they started recycling and they actually say just on the energy bill for their school, $60,000 a year in the first year, which is enough money to hire another teacher.
Oh my Goodness. But it didn't happen at all when the adults wanted to do it, it happened when the young people said, oh, we want to do this week. Do it for us. This is something that belongs to us. We are going to transform the school and make it energy-conscious. So that was one of the first projects that happened under the billion acts of peace campaign.
And it was really exciting to me because it just shows the power of that youth spirit, that youth voice. That's so belittled. Oh, they're just kids. They're just teenagers oh they're trouble, but no, they can really make a huge difference. And then one another project that I really love is during an outbreak of Ebola in Ghana, these young people in the Peace Jam Ghana club, they were out there educating about.
Health, okay. We're scared of coronavirus, right? Imagine Ebola, I would just be in my house, locked in my closet. That's scary. That's a really scary way to die. And these kids were out there teaching. Masking and gloves and sanitary things that people need to do to clean and how to follow the rules and keep yourself safe.
And that epidemic was controlled very quickly. I don't know if you've watched that when that happened, but it broke out and everyone was just like, no. And then all of a sudden it was under control and it was a lot of citizens who got involved in controlling. It wasn't just the government. And a lot of them were young Peace Jam
club people who took it on as a cause. And I was really incredibly proud of them for that. I
Mungi Ngomane: would be too. We, we need them. I know we have it in the US but, maybe we need some people to listen to the peace jam youth here a little bit more.
Dawn Gifford Engle: I think so. Another one that just happened is the young woman who's On the leadership board of the peace jam club.
Florida state university. So they had Andrea you're in the USA and there's a lockdown for what, three months, four months. And it's really hard for college students because they are locked in their dorms and they or they're stuck at home and they're trying to learn online and it's a lot of depression and there's a lot of anxiety.
And they, the Peace Jam club at that university was always doing projects in the community. Will they decide, okay, our project is going to be our fellow brothers and sisters are our fellow students. We're going to worry about their mental health. And so they became this call-in center for everybody who is a Florida state university student to have somebody to talk to a buddy system and to be there for them.
And this girl just won a humanitarian of the year award from Florida state university because of what she did, like she was under lockdown too, but. She thought about going in there instead of going out, she said, okay, how can I, who needs help right now? Okay. It's like everybody who was in my was now locked up, so let's help each other.
Yeah. And it just releasing that energy when you're, I remember when I was a teenager and feeling very helpless and hopeless and being very focused in here. And when you learn about. Great leaders around the world who maybe were very poor, but were able to make a real difference in their part of the world.
And then you see the suffering that's in other parts of the world and you think, wow, it's not just me being 13 is hard. Yes. But look at all the suffering around the world and look at all the human rights issues around the world and look at the. Just the inequality. It's so overwhelming and it's been going on for so long and it has to be addressed and I'm going to put my energy there.
And when you put your energy there, then it's like this power inside you gets unleashed. So that's what happens with. We had one young person, your life into perspective as well. It puts your life into perspective. And one young person said Peace Jam sees the goodness and the greatness in you, peace jam reaches down and pulls it out and holds it up to the light.
Mungi Ngomane: I like that. Yeah. And I know that you spoke about earlier how you're working on the films. And I would say most people know the Dalai Lama is a man of faith and in our world, we put people into boxes and leave them there. But can you speak about your documentary film, the Dalai Lama scientists?
Because I don't think people know the sort of like scientist side of him.
Dawn Gifford Engle: Yeah. He always says that if he hadn't been picked as the reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama, he would have been like an engineer or an electrician. He just loves science and he loves taking things apart. He would take apart watches.
He would take apart any like a fan, like he just to, how does it work? How does it work? That's how his brain is wired up and he loves. To learn is a very curious spirit. So even as a young boy, he was given a gift as a, oh, I'll back up for those who don't know about Tibetan Buddhism.
They believe that when the current leader passes away then and he's reincarnated because of this commitment to continue to be reborn on planet earth until all suffering is ended for human beings. So when the 13th Dalai Lama died, they look for signs and they pointed to this tiny little farming village and far corner of Tibet and really poor peasant farming family.
And they came in, they picked him. He was three. And wow. Did they make a good choice? Because he has been a great Dalai Lama. I don't know whether this is real or not this reincarnation thing, but man, they made a great choice and he was always very bright and always very curious when he was in the patella palace in Lhasa, he would get gifts and somebody gave him the gift of a telescope and he would study the moon and he had ideas about.
The shadows on the moon and turned out to be right. It was against what the Tibetan understanding of the solar system was, but he, at an early age, was making these conclusions that were correct. And when he had a chance after he had to leave Tibet because of a Chinese coming this Chinese invasion and them trying to capture him personally, and he And then it was a refugee community in India.
He spent a good 15, 20 years helping them to survive. But once that was all set up and happening, then he had a chance to actually learn some science because he was in the west and he had a chance to meet with some physicists who to who became his mentors. And 35 years ago, he started with these dialogues that were hosted by the mind and life Institute and where he met with scientists, are the cutting edge of what's happening in Western science.
And there's a whole tradition in Buddhism of Eastern science. When you think about Buddhism, Tibetan, Buddhism, it's really three things. There's one, that's like the faith part. There's one that's, it's like philosophy. So you can meet people who are following Tibetan, Buddhism, but it's more of a philosophy of life.
And then there is the science of it. And the monks would use the scientific method was deep analysis through meditation and the Buddha himself said don't believe anything just because I said it, test it for yourself. Make sure it's true. So there's a real rigorous.
Understanding of the mind and reality. And the crazy thing is when you watch this film, the Dalai Lama scientist, you see how the Tibetan Buddhist actually, a lot of the crazy quirky things are there. And physics right now quantum physics, the Buddhists were saying these things a thousand years, So they came at it from different angles, but they've both arrived at the same place.
Wow. So it's really fascinating. And it's been an experience over 35 years where the scientists have opened up new fields of inquiry-based on the time they spent with the Dalai Llama and the questions that he's asked. And also he has created changes in the Tibetan Buddhist system where science is taught as a discipline now and all of the monasteries, the first change in monastic education in over a thousand years.
And there is a whole generation of Tibetan scientists coming up now who are ready, willing, and able to partner with Western scientists so that this conversation continues. So it's not just the Dalai Lama and some scientists, which is how it started. But it's Western scientists. Tibetan and scientists who are monks who have been trained because the Dalai Lama made this an official part of the curriculum and is funding this research. So it's the best of the east and west coming together. And it's really very exciting.
Mungi Ngomane: Yeah. Also, is there a little background is Yvonne making food? Because I can hear some background.
Pick up in the recording, he just walked through, but he, I don't think he's going to be bad. Okay. Okay. I just have two more questions, so that's okay. I just was like, I didn't want to miss the answer for this because I want people to hear this one. Yeah. Okay. She'll cut this out. Don't worry. And then, you mentioned the sort of questions that you asked the Nobel laureates when you were doing the 1 billion acts of peace or before you did that campaign.
And funny enough, those are also the questions that I use as my sort of closing. And so I'm wondering, what is your greatest fear for humanity?
Dawn Gifford Engle: Oh I'm really afraid about the way that we're not loving each other. It's really hard for me to see.
We're not seeing each other as humans. It's really upsetting to me. When I, in 19 76, 7, I first worked for us Congress. Everybody was still friends, Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative. Okay. We would fight the good fight during the day, but at night you'd go out to the bar and you'd have a beer together.
You'd have lunch together. It wasn't like this. The polarization. It's not just happening in the USA, it's happening all over the world. It's an opportunity right now because of the pandemic for authoritarian leaders the dictatorship and me and Mara, but there are so many countries where strong mankind of leaders are exploiting this To take more power and fear and the fear.
Absolutely. While we're in our house were cowering, we're fear afraid and scared and struggling to feed our families. And, so those in power are taking advantage of the situation to have more resources and power to themselves. And it's really bad. I'm afraid of democracy.
Yeah, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of us losing our common humanity. As climate change happens and. Oh, there's all these people migrating. Everybody won't be able to stay where they live right now. A lot of people are going to have to move. And are we going to be generous or are we going to be like, we shown ourselves to be with coronavirus where it's me first?
I get out. I get not one, two. I get three shots before I give you anything. Crazy because this whole thing's going to keep going on until everybody gets a shot. So everybody should get a shot. Like the very most intelligent thing to do is share it with everybody. But no, we did the opposite. So that scares me.
It's again, that's why we need role models. We need moral voices to listen to because we're better than this. We're better than.
Mungi Ngomane: And what is your greatest hope for humanity?
Dawn Gifford Engle: My greatest hope for humanity is young people. They believe they still believe they even the toughest teenager who just wants to be loved you know, a little bit in the heart and the soul, and it's all right there and they just want to be loved.
They just want to belong. They just want to matter to have somebody care about them, to make a difference in some way. And, you look at young people there's something. I called Dalai Lama eyes. When I first met the Dalai Lama, he looked at me and he didn't, I probably looked funny to him, but he didn't look at my package that I come on.
He looked right in my eyes and like down into the mine. And it really at my heart, I'm seven years old. I'm seven years old. That's essential nature. And he saw it, and he's been, I just became like a seven-year-old child. So when you look at young people in that way, not judging them, but just looking at them with curiosity.
So who's in there, right? You've seen the Dalai Lama do that. Let's he like looks at you and he's who's in there. Ooh, I want to see that. Give that kind of attention to someone right. To their heart and soul without judging, just being curious. And in embracing them, it's like a flower opening up to the sun, the way that young people blossom when they just get that.
A lot of the young people who participate in Peace Jame say it was the very first time. They felt like their voice was ever heard. Cause it was, there's no right answer or no wrong answer with Peace Jam, we just want them to be empowered and for them to have a chance to come up with brand new solutions to problems.
And so it's a completely different thing for a lot of young people. It's just, it's exhilarating and unleashing the goodness and the greatness it's already there in their hearts and souls and the intelligence and the energy and the savvy and the willingness to work hard. And. Enthusiasm unleashing. That is what we're all about.
And I've seen it, the power of it over and over again. I'm I have great hope for the future when I think about young people.
Mungi Ngomane: Wonderful. Dawn, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Lovely to speak with you.
Dawn Gifford Engle: It's wonderful to speak with you too. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.