Ep.23: Sinikiwe Stephanie Dhliwayo | Entrepreneur & Creative | Decolonising Wellness
This week, host Mungi Ngomane is joined by Sinikiwe Stephanie Dhliwayo, a creative, an entrepreneur, an educator, and a speaker who is steadfast in her belief that Blackness and humanity are inextricably linked. She is driven daily by a deep desire to change the narrative of what it looks like and feels like to be well. An immigrant from Zimbabwe, Sinikiwe's work is imbued with Ubuntu and in this episode, she and Mungi discuss the mission of her wellness company, Naaya, as well as how she approaches wellness.
Whether making yoga and meditation accessible to those who need the practice most, or telling stories of marginalized folks through elevated photo and video, Sinikiwe is dedicated to creating a more equitable and just society. In this conversation, Sinikiwe speaks about how she does not believe in a one-size-fits-all wellness practice, focusing instead on asking ourselves: what "brings us joy?" Her work and efforts to make the wellness space more equitable can be found in Beyonce, Byrdie, Dame, Goop, Well and Good, and Refinery29. Her previous teaching and speaking engagements include The Re-Treat, Create and Cultivate, The Wing, Unwell Conference, Lululemon, Goop League, Summit, Faherty Sun Sessions, and Girlvana.
Listen to this episode to hear Sinikiwe share what she lost in the pandemic and what keeps her going in difficult moments. Mungi also highlights Sinikiwe's automatic email response and the two have a conversation about how to balance granting yourself grace in this fast-paced world.
Full Episode Transcript
Mungi Ngomane: Welcome to the Everyday Ubuntu podcast.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
Mungi Ngomane: No, I'm glad that we got to get this conversation rolling. And to get us started, my mom always says that our resumes are not a full explanation of who we are as a person.
And so I'm wondering what you would say is missing from your resume that you think people should know about.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Yeah. I think what the resume does not Exemplify is how just, I think how hard it was to actually become a creative and all of the stories for days that I have from the.
10 years that have gotten me to this point and also have gotten me to a place where I feel confident in running a business, I think that is very much missing from the resume. And I think when folks read pieces on me or, listen to podcasts about me and it seems.
Kind of easy, right and easeful. That is one thing I would like to dispel. Like it absolutely has not been easy. And in that kind of Process right to get to this point. I'm grateful in a lot of ways for everything that I had to go through. Because I think going forward, it has helped me figure out what doesn't work for me.
And how I also want to treat people as I begin to build out my team.
Mungi Ngomane: I totally understand that. I think it's the going from the normal nine to five to the sort of, how am I going to do the things that like my purpose work that look maybe frilly to other people, and then also still survive on that and being like your number one cheerleader through that.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Absolutely. Yeah,
Mungi Ngomane: totally. Speaking of purpose work what do you see as your purpose work?
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: My purpose in life is to be of service to other black indigenous and people of colour and to serve as a vessel for. Showing folks what it looks like and feels like to be physically, mentally and spiritually well.
And that I think takes many forms from facilitating workshops to leading yoga and meditation to, I think just being transparent right. Because people so often aren't transparent about the hard stuff. And again, just like this idea that we've been conditioned to, everything is seemingly an overnight success, which is not the case.
And I have, yeah, I have, I just have a hard time pretending. I think that's always just been me. And so I'd rather be honest.
Mungi Ngomane: Are you one of those people that like every, like everything shows on your face. That's what I thought of when you said pretending like I can pretend because I can be quiet, but it'll show on my face, like right there.
And then
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: yeah, no, absolutely. It's literally just there's no hiding anything. It's on my face.
Mungi Ngomane: I've been working on it. I would really like to be a person that just responds like, oh, I see. And not know, not let them know what I'm thinking, but we're not there yet.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Not there yet.
Mungi Ngomane: Speaking of, the sort of like things that you offer, I know that you have something called Naya and I'm wondering if you could tell my listeners what the origin story behind Naya is and what the mission is.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Sure. So Naya started as a means again, to carve out space for myself and folks who are like me, who identify as black, indigenous and people of colour because I was working for men's health magazine and essentially every month. At that magazine, I was putting out a magazine for white men.
And it was frustrating when we did tell stories of BIPOC folks. Because those stories weren't often told, like through the lens of us, primarily white-owned and operated magazines. And so the lens in which those stories were told Was through like a white lens. And so I, yeah, I really, and also just from a teaching perspective, often teaching in spaces where I was the only black teacher or teacher of colour and wanting to teach people like myself and having that ability.
Through my teaching. So I worked with a nonprofit called Bentong learning, where I taught young people in public schools here in New York City. And that was a great experience. But then I noticed as I, more people found out about me and my work and working with, bigger brands and companies, those spaces started to become.
Less and less diverse. And that was troubling to me. So yeah, I started just thinking about what it would look like to create a community and. I think where I landed was that it also felt very trite to me to talk about things like yoga and meditation without the kind of talking about the larger social issues that we face as black and brown folks.
It just didn't sit right to me to be like, okay, this horrible thing just happened in the media, but you should just close your eyes and breathe, fix everything. And I think that's so often in the context of the broader like wellness industry like that is so often the rhetoric, it's just okay if you journal or if you meditate or if you do yoga, then like everything's going to be great.
Nah, yo if I can't pay bills or if I can't, if I'm constantly in a mode of trying to survive, then there's no way that caring for myself in this blanket umbrella that has been deemed like self-care. That's just not going to be prioritized. And I think also on the flip side of that as self-care has also been touted as like you have to buy something in order for that to be considered like self-care where it's you could just put music on and dance in your bed. And that's caring for yourself or just like cooking yourself a nice meal or going for a walk
or hugging a friend, right? All of those or sending voice notes, like I love sending voice notes. And all of those things are also caring for yourself.
Mungi Ngomane: I like that. It makes me think of when we reached out to you, your automatic email response said, thank you for your email and full transparency, the ongoing racial reckoning and global pandemic have been taxing on my mental health.
You can expect a response within 48 to 72 hours. I appreciate your grace. And I was like, oh yes,
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: like wonderful. It's funny. I've actually, this week had a crisis of. All the things, because I got some feedback because I'm in the process of and I'm sure we'll get into this, but working on an app for Naya.
And so I got some feedback on that. Putting having that kind of message up on my email might indicate to certain folks that I am not maybe as committed to the process of, being an entrepreneur, which I found very interesting. And so I still like, instead of taking it down completely, I just shifted the language, to really Hone in on like the fact that Naya is really rapidly growing.
And as such just expect a delay in my email response. So I just shifted the language a bit because I also think that, unfortunately, Even given after last summer. I think that any time you mention race or racism or anything along those lines, there are certain folks that are just going to be a bit prickly about it.
And I'm trying to grow this business. And so I'm trying to also as much as I don't want to, all of me says. Fuck the system, don't operate within the system. And I'm like, all right. If it's now, been mentioned to me a few times like it's.
Mungi Ngomane: okay. So I was going to ask how do people respond
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: to that? But that's a very interesting thing, right? Because I think in this like a very specific segment of folks that are outside of wellness. And I talked to my dear friend shout out to Ellie burrows who like walked me through it and my dear friend Penda, Jai.
And we talked about it and it's for folks who are in wellness writer, wellness, adjacent. They see that message. And they're like, oh, this is amazing. We love this. And then folks who are, and where the feedback kind of came was people who are more in like that venture capital like money, space of things.
And for them it's, again, it's like outside of the normal paradigm, right? Like I am literally saying Yo, everything's crazy. I don't want to pretend like shit is okay. And so I am choosing to be more what's the word I'm looking for? Maybe intentional conscientious about my output.
And so it's, yeah, it's interesting in that way too. Cause it's just unfortunately like people, we all have our perceptions and misperceptions of folks. And if your first perception of me from that email autoresponder is I'm not like a serious business person, right?
Like to me that says, maybe we're not in alignment to work together. That's what I would think
Mungi Ngomane: for
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: sure. But it's, but again, it's also tricky, right? Cause I, my business is not funded externally and going into this process of running a crowdfunding campaign starting in November, it's like I have to yeah. Just be aware right. Of how people are perceiving my messages and adjust accordingly, in this particular moment. Anyway, can I ask
Mungi Ngomane: so the people who have, and you obviously don't have to answer this, but who have given that feedback would they be people that have been affected by a racial reckoning or not?
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Yeah. See that. But, and I would offer right. It is as frustrating. And it was frustrating. I cry. I called my friends both in tears because I was so upset about this feedback that I received. And unfortunately, given the. The wealth gap for black folks. And other folks given that wealth gap, it's I know I am not independently wealthy.
I have the immense privilege. Although I came here as an immigrant and I know that I have been grossly underpaid and the 10 years of my career. So in a lot of ways, it's like I have to seek some type of. Side help. In order for me to continue to grow my business in a way that I would like, so in that regard, it's We have to make concessions.
And I talk about this a lot. It's I am absolutely like seeing all these posts about I just left my job and all these things, I'm just like, yes, burn it down. Let's burn it all down. Because the thing about it is like these systems don't work for anyone. They don't work for anyone.
They only work for the people who are capitalizing on humanly. And extorting said labour. And so if the people who are. Being that labour has decided like this no longer works for me. And we need to do some different like I personally I'm here for that. But what I the point that I was trying to make, and I got sidetracked was that like, unfortunately, like we operate in a system of capitalism and as much as I would really love to just burn it all down as you girls got.
And I got my rent. Do you know what I mean? So in a lot of ways, while I am trying to build something that, as much as possible cannot operate outside of this really problematic system, I also have to operate within it in other ways. So it's there are certain concessions that I make, even with like projects and things that I take on.
Because I know that, okay, this is going to resource me financially, and this is going to enable me to do this for Naya. Do you know what I mean? So it's that constant, give and take of alright, we're going to do this so that we can do this. Do you know what I mean? And hope it's a balance for sure.
And hopefully, it won't be that way forever. Can we just pause really quickly? Is that possible? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I'm just getting give me just one second. No problem.
Mungi Ngomane: I think it's a balance, but I do want to voice it, I think that message to me came off as you being someone that was like extending grace to yourself. And I think it's courageous. And so I really appreciated it. And so I, sorry that you had to modify it, but I wanted to voice it because I'm sure that I have listeners that.
I would appreciate that may not have ever seen that in someone's email response. And I think it's something that more of us should think of, as these things happen to like our world is not gonna stay stagnant. And so I think having those messages out may get normalized at some point.
So I appreciate you having it is what I wanted to say.
You're, you have Naya and you offer all these services where you are. I know that wellness is like, how do we define it? And you're trying to decolonize it and make it holistic in the way that, we can't just slap a label on something and say self-care and it heals everything.
But I'm wondering how you get people to begin these self-care wellness practices. Like for instance, I'm very bad at meditating. I have actually been trying again this week, but I'm really bad. Like I get out of a sort of like meditation practice and I like I'm lightheaded. And so I must not be doing it properly.
But I wonder what are some wellness practices that you would advise people to pick up on that you really do think.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: I think prescribing like a one size fits all thing for everyone is really challenging, right? Because there are some people that love running and that's how they get excited about moving their body.
And I despise running, you know what I'm saying? Having just like a one size fits all type of thing. Just like I don't personally think works. I think it really is about figuring out what makes you feel good in your body. And in your mind and in your spirit. And then cultivating Those practices.
And making space in your day to do them, and so for me, those things are practicing meditation now less so like the physical Asana part of yoga. Those are my two like main jams, so to speak and. Those things were really worked for me. And then I would, I want to really love breathwork.
But it's a similar thing where I just I'm like, this is like leaving me dizzy like I don't. But then I have other friends that are like really works for us. It's just, I think it, it has to be Customized to you and your needs. And also the thing about meditation is not just I don't know, it's been so commercialized that it's painted as this glossy, Zen, like a moment.
And it's no when you meditate, you are literally being confronted with every single thought in your brain. And that shit is really scary, right? That's scary to just sit down. Take breaths and notice what is up in your mind? Yo, like that, 's not like an exciting endeavour, right?
That's not like scrolling on the gram and getting a hit of dopamine mean from a that's literally just wow, I really have to deal with my stuff. And so I think for that reason, it's also very intimidating for folks because it has been touted as this thing that. I sit and meditate.
And you clear your mind, right? When that's not at all the case, but I would say for folks looking to really create moments for themselves to be useful in this world that is not useful. I would say Focusing, actually, not even on the modality itself, but just like what brings you joy, right?
What brings you joy does like seeing, singing you joy does going to dance classes safely because we're still in a pandemic. Does that bring you joy? Like that to me is caring for yourself is like carving out moments where you feel joy.
Mungi Ngomane: I like that's joy is like a big part of Ubuntu. So I really liked that. What has sustained you in tough moments? As you said, we're still in a pandemic. And so it's, can be a difficult time for any number of reasons. What sort of keeps you going and
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: people keep me going.
My people include the young people that I'm so honoured to work with. When they send me notes that are like Hey thanks for your support. Thanks for your mentorship. Like that absolutely keeps me going. It's Okay. Cool. So all of the stuff for all of the challenging conversations that I'm having around my autoresponder on my email like it's not for not right.
There is a reason why I do these tough things. And if me going through those challenging moments can serve as a. Story, or if it can serve as a lesson for folks then I'm happy to be the sacrificial lamb, so to speak.
Mungi Ngomane: Yeah.
Who are the people who have inspired you?
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: My parents inspire me. They came to this country. My mom specifically came to this country north America, I think she was 20 or 21 when she came to North America, mom doesn't hate me. If I get the.
And she helped make a life for us here. Like none of what I'm doing now would be possible without her being so courageous and being so resilient, right? Like literally none of this now would be possible. So I am more than forever indebted to my mom.
Mungi Ngomane: I don't know if you've listened to the podcast, but I feel like I've always talked about my mom and I literally was like, mom, do you think people are tired of hearing about you?
And she was like, probably, but yeah. My mom came here, I think when she was 17 or 18 and yeah, I feel the same way. So I totally understand.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: She's the best.
Mungi Ngomane: I, as I was reading about you and learning more about Naya, I saw that you love visual storytelling. And I w I wonder if you could speak a little
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: a bit about, and so I studied photography and marketing, and I started loving photography in high school were, I studied Roy de Carrava and Langston Hughes and just like loving their work or, sorry.
Langston Hughes is a writer is a photographer. I meant to say, hold on. I'm just looking up the name. Looking up the name of the book of the photographer, Gordon Parks. That's the name that I couldn't pull Gordon parks and just, yeah, the way that they really exemplified or illustrated rather black people. And showing their humanity. Because then like when things are done through the lens of whiteness, so often black people are made to.
18 as inhumane. And so seeing these photographers, these black male photographers showing black people in a very beautiful manner, it was just so phenomenal. And so from that, I initially was actually going to study graphic design and then my portfolio wasn't strong enough for graphic design and because I'm not patient.
And like I was told. And I'm told that I could do drawing classes, like my first semester and then transfer into graphic design. But I just found that I, I love photography also in equal parts. And so for me, I just kept with photography and then I also studied marketing as well.
But yeah, I think that it's also very hard in terms of being a professional creative because so often there is a hierarchy and that hierarchy doesn't often include people like myself. So it was always just hard to have all of this creativity just bubbling up and wanting to prove me, in a lot of ways.
And just not having an opportunity to do that in a formal corporate setting, So it's been, yeah, it's been like such a pleasure to be able to exude that creativity through Naya. And again, given the limitations of my financial resources, it's I wish I could do 10 times more than I do right now, but for, for right now, it's perfectly fine.
Mungi Ngomane: Of course. Do you still, I've, I'm sure the answer is yes because I think this happens to so many of us, but do you still get the outreach from people where they're asking you for so much work that sometimes. Emotional work. And I don't think they realize that. And then all their offering and retirement.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: I think because I'm so vocal about it now especially via social platforms and stuff like that.
Like when I first started Naya, there were definitely times that I like did a lot of things for no money that should I, I should absolutely have been paid for. But at this juncture, unfortunately. I just also just can't right. I don't have the capacity. Like I, right now I only have an assistant helping me with stuff.
And so if it's something that's going to take away from my time running Naya, right? Like I need to be compensated for it. I can't work for free anymore, and I'm very, yeah, I think I'm also, it helps that I am very vocal about it. It's cool. I love that you're interested in what I'm doing and I don't work for free.
And I think it's also just normalizing, black folks, black women, especially are asked to do things for free because we are not valued. And so I want to normalize that we are valuable. We are intrinsically valuable by nature of being beautiful human beings. And in order to operate within the system of capitalism, right?
Like we need to get paid for our output and our labour.
Mungi Ngomane: My, my thought is I'm always like I was clearly
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: Yeah. That's how I feel too. That's really cute, but how did you find me though? If I haven't been exposed right out here. Yeah.
Mungi Ngomane: Just very interesting. It's very interesting. And then before I get to my two close out questions, which are using my favourite, I want to know is there something that you lost in the pandemic that you're grieving and growing from
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: that is my identity as a creative professional in the sense of working in a corporate climate, right?
I. Always wanted to work in magazines. That was a dream come true for me. And so to not have that outlet, like I do have that outlet. Like my creativity hasn't gone anywhere. It's still there. But to not be able to channel it, I think in that very specific way was absolutely like a big blow to the ego.
And also I think in the long term my mental health is absolutely better off. And yeah it's still a big loss, that it was something that I worked towards for 10 years and now it's gone, that's hard.
Mungi Ngomane: Yeah, I can only imagine. And what would you say is your greatest fear?
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: My biggest fear for humanity, I think is all of the hate that people have in their hearts. That's really. Really heartbreaking to me. This past weekend I went to this event called breakout, shout out breakout. And I had the honour of listening to young people talk about their experiences in school.
And the young people were primarily black, young people and they spoke to how they have to navigate their administration, who. Very racist towards these young black students and hearing that was just. So heartbreaking. It's I didn't have the language for all of the stuff that I went through growing up until I was solidly in college.
And then it was like, all of these things just crystallize. And I was like, oh shit, the kid that like licked me in the store and said, I don't taste like chocolate. That was this. Oh my God. Its likes. Yum, just everything just like going off in my brain.
And so for me to sit there and listen to these kids who are like, one of them started a bilingual book company another one has like a spice company who are so talented. And yet they can't overcome being treated or mistreated because of their skin colour that breaks my heart. It's And sometimes it really put gets me on my knees to the point where I can't function, because it makes me so sad that I'm just like, there really are just people that don't care to know anything about me or my people because we are brown. And that's hard. And so I think that.
I try to operate from a place of love, right? Again, knowing that everyone deserves that love. But I think if we get out of our heads and into our hearts, I think that there could be a chance for humanity.
Mungi Ngomane: I like, I think I totally understand what you're saying about not knowing how to verbalize your experience until college. Because I went to like private, mostly all-girls school for my entire life and was raised in a very white community. And about a week ago I had a family friend asked me if, when I was like, Younger if I enjoyed it.
And I said at the time, I think I did enjoy it, but if I understood what a microaggression was at, like age nine, I don't think I would have been enjoying it because I would have been able to say that was weird, what you just said. That was real F-ed up. But because I like didn't know, I just was like that statement makes me feel uncomfortable, but I don't know why.
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: So I'm just going to like, keep the question,
Mungi Ngomane: it's just so weird. But no, yeah. So I think I feel you on that. And so then what is your greatest,
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: I think love, I think that the more and more that we can tap into love and the fact that, you know, even though we all may have the external differences that we are all intrinsically valuable just by nature of being humans.
Mungi Ngomane: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was
Sinikiwe Dhliwayo: so lovely to speak with you as well.